Curse

shmek · Jun 20, 2006, 09:26 AM // 09:26

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gargle Blaster

.................. Please include any reasons WHY you think there should or shouldn't be a nerf ....

People need to evolve in game instead of cry and whine for nerfs whenever they encounter change in tactics that they don't like. If your builds are no longer effective then it is time for "ME/YOU" to evolve.

Problem is that this doesn't bode well for the lazy of which we all are to some degree..... myself for certain admittedly.

Usually there is a cry of simpletons resistant to change as a natural instinct to encountering a lose that people feel they are somehow superior to, they feel they are always supposed to "win" at whatever game they are playing.

Sadly, it's indicative of society of late in which there is the quick thoughtless cry for someone else to take responsibility for what we don't like, rather then fix the problem ourselves with our own intelligence.

Again, I favor evolution of thought and tactics rather then crying for nerfs so I can keep my same old simple tactics that I have come to love as being my own personal advantage over others.

frojack · Jun 20, 2006, 01:49 PM // 13:49

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zui

Sorry frojack I didn't realise the first part of your post was an actual question, and not a statment with a question mark at the end(a.k.a. rhetorical question)... Either way, I apoligize for this and will be editing my post to note this.

However this does not explain the sheer stupidity of the second half of your post...

Ok, all top 100 guilds are stupid. I guess it's the 1000+ guys that are the smart ones because they don't kite warriors under movment buffs. /end sarcasam

You know, when the warrior catches up to you and swings his weapon, he stands still while he strikes. You continue running. Hmm, he needs to catch up to you again. Oh and of course every second he's under a stance movment buff means he's not under Frenzy.

As I have already stated, and there is clear facts to prove(I'm sure you can find quite a bit on it with the Search function), auto-crits only trigger when you strike a foe directly on their back. It's the exact same area as Bull's Strike used to need to hit for a KD pre-buff. This means that you can easily avoid almost every single auto-crit with proper kiting.

You know, if they knock you down they don't get any auto-crits on you with the kiting example, the only possible auto-crit(besides a scrub using Wild Blow) would be the knock down.

Your 'point' is not based in any fact whatsoever. Please, if you would like to prove me wrong do so. Post all the figures for it, and use a foe running directly away with a Touch Ranger chasing with both a 25% and a 33% speed buff, compare this to a touch ranger against a non-kiting foe. You're going to find that even on a target not kiting directly away, even in a medium sized circle, the damage will be reduced than from that of the damage on a stationary target. Don't beleive that you stop when using a skill? Test it. If you're right and you really don't stop to use a skill(which is proven false by simple observation), then post the math on exactly why it is pointless.

Fair enough. My assertion about kiting in general was uncalled for. What I should have said was kiting is situational. Sometimes you can't afford to kite a warrior, without doing something about the damage. The damage is just potentially too great. Especially if their moving faster than normal. You kite, they will catch up. When they do, that weapon could leach a silly amount of damage.
All the while you are not doing anything about the damage you have already sustained. If you have no defense or healing, I suppose all you can do is run away till you die or your monk to heal you. However, a monk is not always available to save you. I never 'work' under the assumption that a monk will always heal me. I could be wrong, I don't GvG. I'm not up to speed on 'the top 100 guilds' either, sorry.

Edit: Part removed. Appologies. that was just rude of me.

Similarly, with the touch rangers under increased speed; Your running will not achieve much. At least in terms of the damage they do. Believe me, I have tried it. How you could require flow-charts to work that out is beyond me. The delay when they stand to touch is similar to the recharge of Vampiric Touch. How far away do you think you will get after that first touch?
What you can do is run past other non-kiting team mates who might catch the rangers eye if your feeling particularly evil, or kiting around spirits can help delay the inevitable.
Touch rangers can be a tricky proposition. There is no way you can justify '...run. It'll be fine...' as a 'lone' strategy for combating them. I'm sure Calico Swift and many others have telling stories about such situations.

Robin_Anadri · Jun 21, 2006, 01:05 AM // 01:05

Quote:

Originally Posted by frojack

So what your saying is that thay won't be nerfed because Random Arenas, Team Arenas, and Alliance Battles don't matter?

For purposes of nerfing, no, they don't matter. The nerfbat lands on a build if and ONLY if it is adversely affecting the core PvP of Guild Wars, ie., GvG and HA. GvG more than HA, this is, after all, "Guild Wars."

Witness the shadowstep nerf. People had all sorts of fun with AoD porting them all over the map, but it didn't become an issue until it was used to port back to the enemy Guild Lord in one of the final matches last season.

You can say what you will about RA/TA/AB, but they are training wheels PvP. That doesn't mean they're not fun, or that Anet doesn't care about them, but quirky Flavor of the Month builds are *not* an issue there.

As Calico said earlier, things like touch rangers serve as object lessons for those willing to learn. The vampires have been the greatest force in recent memory to teach PvPers the importance of kiting, snares, and degen. Those who learn these lessons are better players for it. Those who refuse to learn will continue to get pwnt. Such is the nature of the game.

Quote:

Similarly, with the touch rangers under increased speed; Your running will not achieve much. At least in terms of the damage they do. Believe me, I have tried it. How you could require flow-charts to work that out is beyond me. The delay when they stand to touch is similar to the recharge of Vampiric Touch. How far away do you think you will get after that first touch?
What you can do is run past other non-kiting team mates who might catch the rangers eye if your feeling particularly evil, or kiting around spirits can help delay the inevitable.
Touch rangers can be a tricky proposition. There is no way you can justify '...run. It'll be fine...' as a 'lone' strategy for combating them. I'm sure Calico Swift and many others have telling stories about such situations.

Nobody's suggeting that kiting is the only strategy for dealing with them, but standing still for them is just plain asking for it. Kiting *does* mitigate damage. Besides, at best a touch ranger is going to have Dodge and Zojun's Haste on her bar, which is a sum total of 22 seconds of 33% speed boost, with a fair bit of down time waiting for recharge. Every time the ranger catches up with the target and stops to cast, that's wasted speed boost time. Also, intelligent kiting more than makes up for any speed difference. I've seen many touchers who weren't paying close attention get kited right into the opposing base, where they are instagibed by the base defender. Kiting a toucher into the midst of your team MM's crowd of minions is the end of that ranger. Kiting them to your team mates is the end of that ranger. All the while, you are mitigating damage because they are not able to spam their skills on you.

If you'd like to have some fun touch hunting (and it IS fun, believe me) try something stealthy like going W/Me and bring Ethereal Burden and Images of Remorse (yes those are expensive spells, but EB will give you energy when it ends and IoR is a cheap degener) and watch the toucher panic.

Undead Preacher · Jun 21, 2006, 06:18 AM // 06:18

I think they should nerf monks.... keep healing and shit

QUIT CRYING!

TheProject · Jun 21, 2006, 06:27 AM // 06:27

And what exactly is the Boon Prot monk supposed to do when he is being chased down by a touch ranger who spams running spells and touch skills while RoF, Guardian AND Protspirit do nothing ? And the entire team is still attacking the enemy monk ?

Maria The Princess · Jun 21, 2006, 06:37 AM // 06:37

Quote:

Originally Posted by TheProject

And what exactly is the Boon Prot monk supposed to do when he is being chased down by a touch ranger who spams running spells and touch skills while RoF, Guardian AND Protspirit do nothing ? And the entire team is still attacking the enemy monk ?

the monk is not suposed to go away far from his team. if he is getting "touched" all he has to do is run in the crown of minions. yes of curse the team is attaking but if the team is 100% idiots and don't see the monk goin down and a red/blue dot in their party, im sorry but that team will not get very far in that game

Dravyn · Jun 21, 2006, 01:50 PM // 13:50

Quote:

Originally Posted by SnipiousMax

For a close range damage dealer, Touch Ranger's fall short. Let's look at what they can't do.

They cannot apply conditions. This is most deeply noticed in the fact that they cannot apply a deep wound. They can TRANSFER conditions, but in of themselves they cannot apply a condition.

They cannot knock down kiting foes.

They cannot interrupt.

They cannot deal burst or spike damage. The damage they do deal is predictable and easily managed.

They cannot heal themselves UNLESS they are standing next to an opponent.

They cannot deal damage without energy. Their DPS tapers if they are subjected to a longer battle, they lack easily sustainable constant damage for a long engagement.

They are entirely dependant on both of the 'touch' attacks. If either attack is disabled, then the entire build falls apart.

Alot of other things are common to all 'Melee' type classes (ie... Snare, Hex, conditions, etc.) have already been pointed out.

In my honest sincere opinion... I don't think the few advantages they do have (ignore armor/evasion, etc) can make up for the many ways they suck.

I can see that most of the "TR are not overpowered" crowd dont' know anything about touch rangers..

They can apply conditions. And if they carry Virulence as an elite, which I have, they can spread more conditions than most builds. Clueless statement.

There is also no need to be standing "next" to an opponent to heal, unless you've filled your skill bar with defense stances. You see, Touchers can pack all of their damage into two skill slots, leaving the rest for regens, of which more than one are available, and their defenses. Clueless statement.

They do not lack easily sustainable constant damage, unless the battle runs long enough to drain anyone else of energy. They pay less than most classes, in terms of energy, for the damage and healing they do. Clueless statement.

They absolutely are not entirely dependant on the touch attacks. Clueless.

I tried one out, because personally i'm sick of dying to them and watching them shred the npcs in Aspenwood, and I must say..
Touch Rangers are bad mothers. I could easily kill every single person that crossed my path with the exception of one mesmer and a necro/monk combo. Everyone else was toast to me, and I played it all day. My opinion by the end of that day playing toucher was that - everyone that complains about them is right. They're cheap, effective, and far too powerful. Sure, they might not be all that in GvG, but as many people have attempted to remind you leet folks, GvG is only ONE of many pvp arenas in this game.

I could barely be crippled, unless I was hexed, because in my months of playing a W/N ive gotten quite handy with plague touch. If i'm alone and hit by a cripshot ranger or crippled by a hex then it will slow me down, otherwise, no. And even crippling me doesn't make me entirely useless.

So for the guy that said "if you think touch rangers are overpowered, play one"..I did. Thanks for the advice.

Anywhere outside of GvG, imo, they're overpowered.

Zui · Jun 21, 2006, 02:32 PM // 14:32

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dravyn

They can apply conditions. And if they carry Virulence as an elite, which I have, they can spread more conditions than most builds. Clueless statement.

Plauge Touch only functions when you have a condition on you. Yes you can inflict conditions on yourself, but you're wasting a skill slot with that most times. Enfeebling Touch or any weakness-based condition is a waste of a skill slot on a TR. The same goes for Throw Dirt. By the way, the fact that you're not carrying OOB makes you much, much less scary as it limits your spamming.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dravyn

There is also no need to be standing "next" to an opponent to heal, unless you've filled your skill bar with defense stances. You see, Touchers can pack all of their damage into two skill slots, leaving the rest for regens, of which more than one are available, and their defenses. Clueless statement.

If you're not using your touch skills, you're essentialy worthless.

If you're talking about bring Life Siphon or Troll Unguent, that's really not going to help you much. Troll can be inturupted by even the absolute worst of all scrubs. Life Siphon can be removed pretty easily, is going to dent your energy, and just about anyone who's played the game for longer than oh an hour should really be able to hit it with an inturupt. If you have no defensive stances(or a large gap in their coverage), inturupts become much more viable agaisnt you, and now Distracting Shot is a serious problem, for example. Oh, and incase you didn't know, Damage Compression > Regen.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dravyn

They do not lack easily sustainable constant damage, unless the battle runs long enough to drain anyone else of energy. They pay less than most classes, in terms of energy, for the damage and healing they do. Clueless statement.

Yes, and they're going run out of energy with no OOB in what, 3 minutes(or maybe that's with OOB, I really can't remember)? A warrior's damage is higher, and far easeir to sustain, and it is greater. Warriors can compress damage and spike. Touch Rangers can not. This means you're only going to ever get a kill due to pure pressure alone, and this pressure is actualy less than that of a Warrior...

Yet they have no large bursts of healing, unless you maybe want to count blood renewal... but if you use that someone can just kill you after the sac... and it's really not an "on demand" heal, so yeah that doesn't count. Only steady streams of it from touch skills or regen, both of which are easily inturupted or even simply overpowered. Damage compression ftw.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dravyn

They absolutely are not entirely dependant on the touch attacks. Clueless.

Ok, so what other skills do they constantly need to spam for the majority of their damage and healing? Oh wait, touch skills. No Vampiric Gaze does not count as descent healing, or descent damage on one of them. Try spamming it... So we have established that the majority of their damage is from Touch skills. We've also established that all their other healing can easily be powered through or is simply not spammable. So you're right, they're only 95+% dependant on touch skills.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dravyn

I tried one out, because personally i'm sick of dying to them and watching them shred the npcs in Aspenwood, and I must say..
Touch Rangers are bad mothers. I could easily kill every single person that crossed my path with the exception of one mesmer and a necro/monk combo. Everyone else was toast to me, and I played it all day. My opinion by the end of that day playing toucher was that - everyone that complains about them is right. They're cheap, effective, and far too powerful.

This is that "1 vs 1" mindset. It's a team game pal. Oh, and owning absolute scrubs that refuse to improve or think and NPCs really does not count for anything. Hell, I've seen a whammo with glads def and both ripostes kill 3 warriors who mobbed him before(C+spacebar targeting FTL), this was in RA. Does this make the whammo overpowerd? No. Should we nerf gladiator's defense and both ripostes for PvP because some idiots didn't realise not to attack the guy with melee? No. This is where learning to play comes in.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dravyn

Sure, they might not be all that in GvG, but as many people have attempted to remind you leet folks, GvG is only ONE of many pvp arenas in this game.

Yet all the descent teams I've had in RA have had no problems with them. Never had a problem with them in TA. Never in HA. Never in GvG. Never "my" team in ABs, the idiots in the other teams on my side, well... I'll say no more.

They're only a problem against bad players. There are too many bad players.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dravyn

I could barely be crippled, unless I was hexed, because in my months of playing a W/N ive gotten quite handy with plague touch. If i'm alone and hit by a cripshot ranger or crippled by a hex then it will slow me down, otherwise, no. And even crippling me doesn't make me entirely useless.

This is either because scrubs don't A) let their team know they're using crippling shot/pin down B) understand what their team mate is saying or lastly C) don't know what plauge touch is or does, or that touch rangers carry it.

What can you do when you're crippled, against good players? You can't touch anything. You can use stances. You can use any ranged spells, or any self-targeting skills like Troll Unguent. Yeah, you're worthless except for the possible vampiric gaze, and due to that being a spell, well, you're really not going to be spamming that.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dravyn

Anywhere outside of GvG, imo, they're overpowered.

Why do good teams roll them in TA?
Why do good teams roll them in HA?
Why do good teams roll them in RA?
Why do good teams roll them in ABs?

Answer: Touch Rangers only work against bad teams. Again, the problem is not with Touch Rangers, it's with the players.

You really can't determine if somthing is unbalanced at extremely low levels of play. It has to be good at high levels of play, in any mode of play. Touch Rangers suck at even mid-level play, they're no where close to unbalanced. Learn to play.

Dravyn · Jun 21, 2006, 04:12 PM // 16:12

I understand its a team game, but the only truly comprehensive team game environment out of all of the myriad pvp arenas available in this game is HoA and GvG. That leaves the rest of the game where touch rangers are overpowered. You can say what you want about what they're capable of, but I know, I spent all day playing one and doing what I see them do - straight up owning everything around me.

Myself, I enjoy Fort Aspenwood over RA and TA. I can't get into GvG. Personally I don't think all balance should be limited to GvG, with the rest of us hung out to dry. Touch Ranger in and of itself is an extremely overpowered build anywhere outside of a fluid team building format, such as the aforementioned arenas.

You mention all these interrupts, etc, but there's one major difference between warrior stances and ranger stances that pisses me off to no end - just about all warrior defensive stances end as soon as you use a skill. Ranger's do not, another factor of touch rangers being an abusively exploited build. I don't get interrupted as a ranger, because of my stances. I can spam troll unguent all day. Again, don't respond to everyone's complaints with the GvG mindset, because I suppose they're balanced there. Everywhere else they're not.
Warriors cannot outdamage touch rangers, wild blow or no..I've played as a warrior against them and now I've played as one. Even KD warriors are usually dead before they can build the adrenaline to get their chain started, unless they've worked it up on another target.

Decent teams in RA? lol, not even going there. But I have seen 4 man toucher teams in TA decimate everything in their path, until someone starts building mesmer teams in the hope they catch them.
Good teams do not roll them in TA and RA. Mesmer teams roll them in TA and RA. If there is any enemy anywhere near me, a crip ranger will NOT slow me down, I can promise you that. Doesn't work on my w/n either, and he's a helluva lot less self sufficient than my new toucher.

Personally I'm sick of you people calling everyone else bad players because they can't handle touch rangers. This class can pack all of their damage dealing AND healing into two skill slots. They have a multitude of defensive skills that alow skill use through them, they are fast, they are durable, and most of all, their energy usage is cheap, creating spammable life drains that don't count as spells or attacks. Yes, almighty GW player, you can beat Touch Rangers when you've got a mesmer and a crip shot ranger and you kite them, go you. Get off your freakin pedestal.
I'd almost be willing to bet I could take my TR into HoA or even GvG and kick far more ass than my warrior can. I imagine i'll try TA and HA tonight. If you like, I can post some results for you. I know what they can do, unlike you apparently

Quote:

Why do good teams roll them in TA?
Why do good teams roll them in HA?
Why do good teams roll them in RA?
Why do good teams roll them in ABs?

Answer: Touch Rangers only work against bad teams. Again, the problem is not with Touch Rangers, it's with the players.

Remember ,its a team game. When was the last time you needed a "good team" to roll a warrior, or a single mesmer? Yea...Why does it take "good teams" to deal with one build?

Hell, by your logic, anyone that dies to a warrior must be an incredibly bad player, since warriors are easier to shut down, have less self healing, do less up front opening damage, and have little to no skill dmg while under defensive stances.

Robin_Anadri · Jun 21, 2006, 07:15 PM // 19:15

I was going to post more of a response, but I can't stop laughing long enough about Dravyn's l337 t0u(h r4/\/g3r sk1llz, spamming troll unguent and Virulence.

Because everybody knows, touch rangers need points in Wilderness Survival, and only n00bz carry Offering of Blood.

Pick Me · Jun 21, 2006, 07:55 PM // 19:55

I'm sorry, but why are people making a big deal out of this? As far as I know, PvP and GvG are all about evolution. Computer opponents don't evolve, so once you know what they have, you know how to beat them.

In PvP, everyone is different, every doesn't go by an algorythm (at least I hope not), so the only thing you can do is "evolve or step aside".

The assassin, the ranger, the warrior, the necromancer and the ritualist all have skills/spells that will by pass whatever evade stances that the Touch Ranger has.

I haven't read all of the responses to this thread, but the ones I've seen, knockdowns will interupt the TR. But how about Price of Failure or Spirit of Failure. Do these have any affect on a TR? I'm guessing VT will by pass Shelter and Shield of Judgement. Spirit Shakles, does that do anything?

If VT & VB aren't considered attacks, then I guess Spirit Shackles won't do anything, neither will Empathy, Reckless Haste, Insidious Parasite, Shield Bash, etc.

Hmmm... Do warriors bring Griffon's Sweep, Leviathan's sweep, Wild Blow, Shove, None Shall Pass, Warrior's Cunning, Irresistable Blow, or Swift Chop, or Sun and Moon Slash, Seeking Blade, Pure Strike, Jaizhenju Strike?

These should be able to allow them to hit the TR and drop them. Yes, maybe the health gained by VT & VB will be more than the damage done by the warrior alone, but, Warriors are rarely alone.

samifly · Jun 21, 2006, 09:05 PM // 21:05

The touch skills are simply skills, not attacks or spells. Like Blackout, Throwdirt, Shock, etc...

Dravyn · Jun 21, 2006, 09:54 PM // 21:54

Quote:

Originally Posted by Robin_Anadri

I was going to post more of a response, but I can't stop laughing long enough about Dravyn's l337 t0u(h r4/\/g3r sk1llz, spamming troll unguent and Virulence.

Because everybody knows, touch rangers need points in Wilderness Survival, and only n00bz carry Offering of Blood.

Hello troll. Another GvG l33t roxz0r omgwtfbbqpwn player in the house? yay...
I was merely discrediting a claim by one of your leet brethren about Touchers not being able to give any conditions. You lot like to come up with your own scenarios (mostly untrue) about how underpowered they are anywhere outside of facing a pre-made team that can cover most if not all facets of class based pvp.

YES, I know, I have played one, and I'm pretty sure I could kick some ass in GvG as well, depending on how many mesmers were actually paying attention to me. Forget crippling, there's too many people to touch.

Touch Rangers rock outside of GvG, I can assure you. Not because people are bad players (see my warrior reference) but because its the only build in the game that can do what it does. No matter how you slice it, its death on two feet in this game, and very good at being that.

so yea, go ahead and call everybody that complains about an overpowered build noobs and tell them they need to learn to play, etc etc, because we all know you're so uber leet, when in fact I could probably take 4 touchers and roll any 4 man team you could put together, not withstanding a team made to kite, in which case you'd've had to *build* specifically to cater to me. That's balance tho, uh?

samifly · Jun 22, 2006, 01:46 AM // 01:46

First of all, she's no troll.
And touch rangers, unless you mean, using throw dirt, cannot give conditions, only return them. Plus you have to be in melee range to do it, which if you are crippled, doesnt do you alot of good. If you see a crippled touch ranger, then just -dont go near them-. Simply not letting touch rangers get near you makes them bloody ineffective. Snare/cripple, degen, watch as they die right as they get to you.

2nd - they are not "death on two feet" the damage they do is feeble at best, and not sustainable for any length of time. They cannot heal very well outside of melee, if they have a proper build -ie-16 expertise, 12 blood, and are even more crappy if you spread out your points more.

BTW, I -hate- playing touch rangers, I just find it silly that people think they deserve a nerf - plus nerfing necro touch skills, would, in all honesty require nerfs of any touch skill.

Fay Vert · Jun 22, 2006, 02:07 AM // 02:07

Flip! Are you lot still going on about this?

SnipiousMax · Jun 22, 2006, 03:08 AM // 03:08

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dravyn

I can see that most of the "TR are not overpowered" crowd dont' know anything about touch rangers..

I played and judged Touch Rangers long before they became popular. So I'll ignore that snap.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dravyn

They can apply conditions. And if they carry Virulence as an elite, which I have, they can spread more conditions than most builds. Clueless statement.

This was covered by others. But even ignoring the fact that Virulence is a spell, an elite, and a whole other attribute, it's not that great an option for a Touch Ranger.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dravyn

There is also no need to be standing "next" to an opponent to heal, unless you've filled your skill bar with defense stances. You see, Touchers can pack all of their damage into two skill slots, leaving the rest for regens, of which more than one are available, and their defenses. Clueless statement.

This was covered by Zui.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dravyn

They do not lack easily sustainable constant damage, unless the battle runs long enough to drain anyone else of energy. They pay less than most classes, in terms of energy, for the damage and healing they do. Clueless statement.

Since you don't have OoB, you're losing 2.33 energy a second, with no way of managing the loss. That's hardly sustainable. Even with OoB, TR's are working with an energy deficiet, and once they hit bottom, they deal a whooping 'next to nil' damage, as compared to a warrior, which is deadly and dangerous at zero energy.

Considering you're entire experience with Touch Ranger's is limited to your recent experience.... and you've been arguing this entire time without having played one... I think you've really overstepped yourself accussing someone of being clueless.

Undead Preacher · Jun 22, 2006, 08:33 AM // 08:33

can the moderators make a rule against whinning in the forums, then all these crybabies can be BANNED....

oh man i just got PWNED.... nerf please lol newbies

Dravyn · Jun 22, 2006, 02:01 PM // 14:01

Quote:

Originally Posted by SnipiousMax

I played and judged Touch Rangers long before they became popular. So I'll ignore that snap.

This was covered by others. But even ignoring the fact that Virulence is a spell, an elite, and a whole other attribute, it's not that great an option for a Touch Ranger.

This was covered by Zui.

Since you don't have OoB, you're losing 2.33 energy a second, with no way of managing the loss. That's hardly sustainable. Even with OoB, TR's are working with an energy deficiet, and once they hit bottom, they deal a whooping 'next to nil' damage, as compared to a warrior, which is deadly and dangerous at zero energy.

Considering you're entire experience with Touch Ranger's is limited to your recent experience.... and you've been arguing this entire time without having played one... I think you've really overstepped yourself accussing someone of being clueless.

/boggle

I have played one, or did you only read what you disagreed with and nit pick it..obviously you didn't really read what I wrote.
I did not say that Virulence build makes Touch Rangers uber, what I said was that they CAN spread conditions, even though you all claimed they could not. Okay? I'm merely discrediting your claims.

I also know that if I really need to farm faction, Touch Ranger is a great class to play because you can easily annhilate everybody else in Aspen and destroy the npc's in a matter of seconds. I can also take a toucher into TA and HA and score crazy kills, barring the team with a good mesmer set up.

Unless you're built to take down touch rangers, then you don't stand a whole lot of chance. Cripple doesn't hardly faze me on my W/N, it certainly doesn't faze me on an R/N. Unless i'm all alone, in which case I, like any other class, will most likely be screwed.

You people are all ignoring what I'm saying. I say I've played it, it rocks, I feel its overpowered. Everybody else feels its overpowerd except for the close knit GvG community that posts here. You just call us all whiners and noobs and to stfu and learn how to play, even when I/we dispute your idiotic claims with proof and personal experience. Yes, Touchers aren't so much a problem in GvG, we've covered that. Thanks for using that as your *only* foot to stand on, repeatedly.

wsmcasey · Jun 22, 2006, 02:40 PM // 14:40

I played around with a touch ranger build last night in random arena and alliance battles, and at times it does feel a bit over powered, but other times its a frustrating build. Since you have to touch your target to deal damage and heal yourself it leaves you wide open for ranged attackers to wipe the floor with you, especially mesmers since you dont have a hex removal. You can bring a long a self heal like troll unguent, but it wont be as effective at +5 or 6 regen since you cant invest many points in Wilderness Survival. It's a fun build to play around with, but it gets old pretty fast because your basically spamming 2 skills over and over again. I'll stick with a bow, thank you.

Robin_Anadri · Jun 22, 2006, 03:12 PM // 15:12

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dravyn

/boggle

I have played one, or did you only read what you disagreed with and nit pick it..obviously you didn't really read what I wrote.
I did not say that Virulence build makes Touch Rangers uber, what I said was that they CAN spread conditions, even though you all claimed they could not. Okay? I'm merely discrediting your claims.

You accuse *him* of nitpicking? Had you been, I don't know, reading the posts and responses to this thread, you would have seen that I quibbled slightly with his otherwise fantastic post and suggested that a toucher might occasionally carry Signet of Agony to inflict bleeding. Why SoA? Because it's a blood magic skill, and a signet at that, meaning it's no drain on my energy pool and it will do the max initial damage that a non-necro primary can do with it.

You either didn't play the skill set you suggest, or you played an extremely gimped build and if you owned, it's because you were up against extremely bad players.

The point of touch rangering is to have 16 expertise and 12 blood magic. Presuming you did, you only have 6 attribute points left over, and you suggest spreading those into two more skill lines?

Let's say I spot you a minor WS rune, and you throw one point into WS which takes you to a pathetic +4 regen for Troll Unguent. It won't go up to five even if you dump the rest of your points in WS, so we're done there. So, you spend 2 energy (at 16 exp) and 3 seconds of standing still to gain +4 regen for 10 seconds?

So then we move on to Death Magic... 5 skill points left... throw in two ranks... oops! we're done. Going to 3 needs 3 points and we only have 2 left. So at 2 DM, Virulence creates conditions for..... 5 seconds! Oooooh scary! Plus it's a *spell* meaning it cost you the full 5 energy to cast it, plus you have to cast it on a foe who's already suffering from a condition, which in your build you can't inflict, you can only transfer.

At this point, you've only wasted skill slots and crippled your energy management, which is significant. But you could argue major or superior WS Rune or pulling points out of Blood Magic or Expertise, which further gimps your build. Even pulling one rank out of expertise makes your cost for the 15 energy skills go up to 6. Pulling one rank out of Blood Magic lowers your damage and self heal by six points.

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I also know that if I really need to farm faction, Touch Ranger is a great class to play because you can easily annhilate everybody else in Aspen and destroy the npc's in a matter of seconds. I can also take a toucher into TA and HA and score crazy kills, barring the team with a good mesmer set up.

Unless you're built to take down touch rangers, then you don't stand a whole lot of chance. Cripple doesn't hardly faze me on my W/N, it certainly doesn't faze me on an R/N. Unless i'm all alone, in which case I, like any other class, will most likely be screwed.

You only "annhilate" bad players. You find more bad players in Aspenwood and RA. If your toucher scores crazy kills in TA and HA, it's because you're up against a team that would have lost to henchmen. Mesmers are not the only bane of touch rangers. Clueless statement.

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You people are all ignoring what I'm saying. I say I've played it, it rocks, I feel its overpowered. Everybody else feels its overpowerd except for the close knit GvG community that posts here. You just call us all whiners and noobs and to stfu and learn how to play, even when I/we dispute your idiotic claims with proof and personal experience. Yes, Touchers aren't so much a problem in GvG, we've covered that. Thanks for using that as your *only* foot to stand on, repeatedly.

You're perfectly welcome to feel that it's overpowered. That's a personal statement. I'm just as free to feel that those who feel it's overpowered are whining losers who don't want to deal with the changing landscape of PvP by adapting their builds and/or play styles and learning that GW is a team game, not a 1v1 game. Every single "personal experience" that has been posted by vampire detractors has been from one of two perspectives, either they got pwnt by a toucher 1v1, or they rolled up a toucher and pwned other classes 1v1. No one is going to argue that a touch ranger can take down most builds 1v1. That does not, however, mean that it's overpowered. Why? Because, as has been repeatedly stated, this is a *team game.* No touch ranger can survive the concerted attention of 2 or more foes, regardless of whether they brought specific touch ranger counters.

And there, at last, is the heart of the issue. The touch ranger is hardly the first build to pressure players to learn to work with their team, it's merely the latest and one difficult to ignore because it's capable of pwning warriors 1v1. It's terribly bruising to thier egos, but the *intelligent* players will pick themselves up, dust themselves off, and learn from the experience, in this case learning that 1v1 is inferior to working with your team. Shocking concept.